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creativity

Perry Marshall on redefining work

Luke Szyrmer February 26, 2022 556 5


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About Perry Marshall

Perry Marshall is one of the most expensive business strategists in the world. He is endorsed in FORBES and INC Magazine and has authored eight books. At London’s Royal Society he announced the world’s largest science research challenge, the $10 million Evolution 2.0 Prize. His reinvention of the Pareto Principle is published in Harvard Business Review, and his Google book laid the foundations for the $100 billion Pay Per Click industry. He has a degree in Engineering and lives with his family in Chicago.

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[00:00:00] Welcome. Welcome. Welcome today on the managing remote teams podcast, I’m excited to be hosting Perry. Marshall Perry is a business consultant who has branched out into scientific research. One of the reasons which I was keen to speak to Perry about was a piece that he put out a while ago about what work is and how work looks now in the context of remote work. So I guess what is work well?

[00:00:28] We need more words for work than we actually have. I realized this about eight, eight years ago, I did a now famous. Seminar with Richard Koch. It was very expensive and Richard is a billionaire.

[00:00:44] Now he was only worth a couple hundred million then. And he’s one of the wealthiest guys in the world. ,. Richard Works about an hour a day. He’s an equity investor. I confirmed myself cause I spent a week living at a couple of his various houses. His wealth is spiraling upwards at the similar paces as Warren buffet.

[00:01:06] And I started realizing I got some bloke. From certain people about this while you’re you’re selling porn, business porn. You’re you’re encouraging people to be lazy and slothful, and I don’t really buy your argument that this is just 80, 20. And I had to realize it’s like the word love a person who speaks Greek or a person who’s a biblical scholar would know that the Greeks had three words for love.

[00:01:35] They had eeros, which is sexual love phileo, which is brotherly love. And it got bay, which was like a boundless unfiltered. Unlimited love. It’s very clear if you have three words, it’s very clear, that you’re not talking about sex for example. If you don’t have enough words for something, you tend to mix things up in your head. And I realized that people were doing this about work.

[00:02:00] I’ve got a colleague John Fancher who. We’ve been working together for years. We sat down and we discussed this very carefully and we realized that we need to put on a quadrant system. And we came up with four kinds of work and I think this is an incredibly useful distinction.

[00:02:20] And the kind of work that most people are hopefully talking about when they talk about work and work is a good thing is what we called work ethic and work ethic is if you’re an attorney and you bill 300 pounds an hour, and you’re very good at what you do and you’re doing what you do best for your clients, that’s work ethic.

[00:02:45] And you should try to maximize that in your Workday, but then there are several other kinds of work. So another quadrant is we call it sweet life and that is taking a day off. It is spending the evening with your family, it’s going on vacation or holiday. And you need some of that too.

[00:03:09] There’s a false economy of working seven days a week, it appears to be productive.

[00:03:16] It is not, it is less productive, not more. There is a false economy and working 14 hours a day because the truth is most people have about two to four hours of really good quality thinking time. Productivity like the razor blade is sharp, right? The knife blade is sharp, right.

[00:03:41] And the rest of it is cutting with a dull knife or shaving with a dull razor, I just had a conversation a day or two. About like venture capital firms and investors who acts like we’re going to work the team to death. Like it’s going to be 90 hours a week and we’re going to deliver lunch and they’re just going to be here all the time and we’ll, we’re going to do their laundry.

[00:04:08] And we’re going to get 90 hours a week out of these people. You don’t you get 90 hours of really low quality poor decisions

[00:04:16] second quadrant is okay. Third quadrant is barnacles. Now this is the real enemy here in barnacles is low productivity, predictable, easy work. That either shouldn’t be done or should be done as little as possible. So what is barnacles? Barnacles is clicking refresh on your email box 162 times a day. Articles is I just think I’m going to go on LinkedIn for a while. Okay. It’s it’s the stuff you do when you’re procrastinating.

[00:05:00] And most people do hours and hours of barnacle work every day in it’s feels like work, but it’s really not work. It’s not it’s a waste of time. Okay. In fact, I think a lot of people spend five or six hours a day on Barnard.

[00:05:20] The fourth category is what I call Renaissance time. And Renaissance time is pre unpredictably, occasionally productive exploration. If you pray and meditate in the morning, which I highly recommend that you do that’s Renaissance time. If you go on an adventurous vacation that is stimulating, as opposed to just relaxing like maybe, maybe you go mountain climbing. That’s Renaissance type going to a concert is Renaissance time and exploring reading books. You wouldn’t normally read having lunch with people you wouldn’t normally have lunch with. That is, 95% of the time. It’s just fun. And 5% of the time it’s incredibly productive. And most of the breakthroughs in your life actually come from there. They come from having lunch with somebody you don’t even know very well, who knows this other person. And they introduce you to. Yeah, it opens a whole new world to you. So work ethic, sweet wife, barnacles and Renaissance time.

[00:06:32] And the real name of the game, I think, is moving barnacle time to Renaissance time, which makes most people feel guilty.

[00:06:43] the really nefarious aspect of Barney. Stuff is that people don’t feel guilty about it. They fool themselves into thinking that they’re doing something productive. They’re actually only doing something predictable. A lot of people to go on vacation or to go mountain climbing, they feel like, oh, I have to earn this. I have to justify it. I have to rationalize it. This is a waste of time. That’s just head trash.

[00:07:09] So four kinds of work. And when I started making these distinctions, my life became way more effective and productive than it ever was before.

[00:07:22] So going back to Richard cosh, the basic idea is that he spends an hour a day and work ethic time, and then tries to spend as much of the rest in Renaissance time.

[00:07:34] In fact, this was why we made the quadrants because I realized that Richard spends probably five or six hours a day doing Renaissance time. He rides his bike three hours a day. That’s Renaissance, his time he spends the afternoon reading, writing, researching, and it’s whatever he wants to do. He’s interested in politics. He’s interested in religion. He’s interested in science. He’s interested in business. Maybe today he wants to argue with somebody about British politics or, whatever, but it’s very deliberate. And it’s not work ethic. It’s not, oh, I’m I got my nose to the grindstone. I’m running the business.

[00:08:19] This is the exact opposite of the way most people operate. Most people, if they were good and balanced, they would do one hour of Renaissance time and five or six hours of work ethic time, he flips it upside down. And I think this is a major reason why he’s so well.

[00:08:39] Yeah,

[00:08:40] he does is he makes time for exploration and he’s constantly chiseling down I don’t need to be doing this.

[00:08:48] I don’t need to be doing that. Somebody else can be doing that. And so this was a major revelation when I wrapped my head around what he was doing.

[00:08:58] Two of the quadrants are about the work being unpredictable, the unpredictability component, is the piece that a lot of people feel uncomfortable with.

[00:09:07] Yes. So before we came up with the names, the quadrants where there’s productive, and unproductive, predictable, unpredictable and so like sweet life. Is unpredictably unproductive. Okay. It’s which is what? A vacation, okay. It’s not supposed to be productive. It’s you’re supposed to be resting, but then when you get to unpredictably productive, so here’s the thing.

[00:09:37] Doing what you’ve always done. We’ll always get you what you’ve always got.

[00:09:44] Most people’s lives are honestly way too predictable. In fact, they’re so predictable. They don’t even have most of their calendar mapped out more than about two weeks in advance. And it’s not because they’re going to be doing new things in three months. It’s because they’re going to be doing the same old things in three months.

[00:10:07] And they just haven’t exactly decided when I’m going to have this phone call or when I’m going to have this meeting, but I know I’m going to be going into the same office or doing the same job that the people who are doing. Unpredictable things are the people whose calendar is mapped out six months, 12 months, 18 months in advance, because they’re actually doing something that’s new and different or something important or something that is going to impact or shape the world.

[00:10:37] And so you need to make room for discovery and if it’s discovery by definition, You can’t predict exactly what it’s going to be and you don’t want it to. And so you have to have permission.

[00:10:53] Let’s talk about meeting people. One of Richard’s observations is that the best networking comes from the friends of the people on the edge of your network, not the friends of your close friends, the friends of your close friends.

[00:11:08] You probably already know. But so Luke, I don’t know you super well. We’ve known each other a few years, but we’re not close friends. So if I have a good friend that I have beer with every week and I have you, and he’s got a friend and you’ve got a friend, the likelihood of me making a major breakthrough meeting, your friend is way greater than me making a breakthrough. I’m meeting my friend’s friend, but meeting your friend, there’s probably only one chance in 20 that’s going to turn into something big. I need to give myself permission for the other 19 meetings to completely be okay. I’m going to go. I have one, two of those people. I have no idea what’s going to happen.

[00:11:51] Most of the time nothing’s going to happen. Other than hopefully we had an interesting conversation and I’m not going to hold unlike, like this has to be productive. This has to work like you make you better. Make sure this is the problem with a Protestant work ethic. It’s you have to make every single minute count. Well you can do that. If you’re working on an assembly line. Is that what you want? Do you like working on an assembly line? Do you like everything being predictably productive all the time and you’re just cranking out the stuff? No. Maybe somebody blue and God bless them.

[00:12:29] So in this contexts there’s an interesting relationship between some of the boxes too. So you came up with this idea of the gravitational Slingshot. So what do you mean with that?

[00:12:39] So when they sent the Voyager satellite into outer space in the late 1970s The rockets we could put on that thing could only push it so fast and so far.

[00:12:55] And somebody figured out that if you pointed the satellite at a planet at just the right angle, it would make this V. And it would come back the other way. It goes into the gravitational field of the planet and it makes half of an orbit. And then it comes back the other way. And through, this crazy mathematical voodoo, it takes away some of the momentum of the planet and it adds it to the satellite.

[00:13:33] So it comes shooting back together with. And I believe they did this twice, not once. Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, something like that. They Slingshot at it and they figured out exactly when to do it and how to do it. And then it shot it way faster into the edges of the solar system so that it go past Neptune and Uranus and Pluto.

[00:13:56] And now it’s like right now, it’s now 24. Light your hours. That’s how long it takes for the signal to get back to earth. It’s I don’t know, 40 million miles out there, something like that up there. For sure. However far that billion 40, I don’t know how far it is. It’s that? That’s the only way they could do that.

[00:14:18] Okay. And so this is a concept that you can apply. To business or publicity. Like if you’re in a debate and your opponent is famous in your, not if you can get your opponents and debate you, that will make you famous. And that is a gravitational. Yeah. And let’s just generalize it to the point that most advances that you make in your career are not going to come from your own energy.

[00:14:55] They are going to come from other people’s orbits. Okay. So I’ll give you an example of how I used this. I organized a $10 million prize. It’s the largest fundamental science research prize in the one. And it’s for origin of the genetic code. I don’t have a PhD. I don’t work professionally as a scientist.

[00:15:17] Like how is a guy with electrical engineering degree? Going to get the scientific world to take me seriously when I don’t have all of the credentials. I got people who do, so I’ve got George Church from Harvard university. Who’s one of the most influential geneticists of all time. And I’ve got Dennis Noble of Oxford. Who’s the leading physiologist at that university. And and this got me into a world that I could possibly have gotten into myself. I did things that none of those people were doing, like raising investment money and organizing prizes. So I did what I could do, but then I brought it together.

[00:16:02] And so to me, that’s analogous to that tiny little satellite slingshotting around the planet coming back the other way, 10 times as fast and going 10 times as far and creating a situation where people have no choice, but to take you serious.

[00:16:19] So the reason why I was thinking about it was in the context of especially the sweet life being used as a way to get back into the other quadrants.

[00:16:30] Yes. Okay. Perfect example. I just came back from Antarctica and that was. Basically two weeks of Renaissance time unpredictably productive, not necessarily work productive, but completely expanding my horizons. And I got to tell you most people probably think of Antarctica as this blizzardy wasteland where, Explorers go to die or crazy people who live there to do science experiments or something.

[00:17:07] It is the most beautiful place I’ve ever been. And I don’t even have vocabulary for what that experience was like. It was so incredibly beautiful. Stimulating, pristine. Wild austere in hospitable teeming with life. It was so incredibly stimulating. I already know from going to other places doing other times that trip is probably going to feed my creativity for a couple of years.

[00:17:47] And people who give themselves permission to do this sort of. We’ll tell you that I will be more productive this year for having gotten to Antarctica. It was expensive. It wasn’t cheap. But for having taken the time off and spent the money, I think I will be more productive in my work life because my imagination is better and my intuition is sharper and I feel better.

[00:18:11] I’m more connected to nature. I think that is a gravitational Slingshot and a lot of people just have a hard time giving themselves permission to enjoy anything. I get that you have unfinished business and you have obligations and you have unfinished projects and all of us do. When are you going to start enjoying your life? Okay. Are you waiting until some magical moment happens when you suddenly have permission like to do something interesting? There’s no rule that says it even has to cost money. I ride my bike through the forest preserve several times a week.

[00:18:56] Bikes are cheap and forest preserves are free. If you don’t have money to go in Antarctica. I understand. How long has it been since you’ve been to the forest preserve? How long since you’ve been, since you sat by a babbling Brook or a lake, like those things, these things don’t cost me.

[00:19:19] So speaking of money, to draw it back a little bit more into more let’s say business things. Another kind of related concept that you had in terms of time that I think is really useful is that. There’s some types of work. That’s let’s say $10 an hour work. There’s some, that’s a hundred and some that’s a thousand, some 10 thousands. I don’t think you’ve quite gotten to a hundred thousand I’m sure you could. I’m not sure if I could.

[00:19:43] Let me challenge. So let’s talk about that. This is a great. Most people think of work as, oh my first job paid $5 and 50 cents an hour and oh, if I do the math, now I make $26 an hour or I make $78 an hour or I make $150,000 a year.

[00:20:06] And people think of the value of their time is some kind of average of what they make. But. That completely obscures the actual value of what you do minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day. The truth about what you do is that the value of your time is on an exponential scale. And there’s a whole bunch of stuff in your life.

[00:20:35] That’s basically $10 an hour work like really anybody can do. Doing your laundry is $10 an hour work and making macaroni and cheese is $10 an hour work and shuffling papers and going to the store, like all that. That’s $10 an hour work, and there’s an awful lot of business. Whatever you do in your profession. It needs to be done by somebody, but it’s not particularly valuable. And in the average, a hundred thousand dollars a year person spends the vast majority of their time doing literally $10 an hour work. Okay.

[00:21:09] But then there’s hundred dollar an hour. And that’s things like, answering a question from a customer or doing something useful with your other staff members or whatever. There’s less of that, but there’s quite a bit of it.

[00:21:22] And then there’s thousand dollar an hour work, and there’s less of that, but it’s still there. And then there’s $10,000 an hour work. So let me give you an example just to make it very clear. That everybody does $10,000 an hour work, even if they don’t realize it.

[00:21:40] Let’s say you are a receptionist at a dental office and the phone rings and there’s too much going on and you go, can you hold please? And you put the person on hold for two minutes and then you pick up the phone and they’re gone. Now, the receptionist. 20 bucks an hour. And so you think of the receptionist job is being a $20 an hour job, but the person who called was ready to spend $5,000 on dental work and in two minutes you lost him. Okay. So $5,000 in two minutes. That’s $150,000 and hour of lost money from a $20 an hour person.

[00:22:38] Okay. So my argument is if Helen, the receptionist and the dentist and the office manager, if they all get together and they figure. What is it that we are going to do to make sure that nobody gets put on hold for two minutes, especially when they’re about to spend $5,000 and that those things don’t fall through the cracks, whatever meeting systems that you had to put together and make sure that happens. That is thousand dollar an hour work for everybody involved. as a business consultant, who’s worked in 300 industries. And every kind of business you can imagine, these kinds of things happen all the time, everywhere. There’s all kinds of spots where customers have bad experiences, they’re ignored, they’re neglected, they’re willing to spend money and nobody’s available to take it.

[00:23:39] And so even how. Does $10,000 an hour work for two minutes at a time. And probably she’s completely unaware of it. So if this is true of Helen who makes $20 an hour, how true is it of somebody who has a team of five people or 50 people or 500 people? There’s huge levels. In your work.

[00:24:11] If you do have a team, how would you go about thinking through and maximizing the amount of value that they generate.

[00:24:19] I think. Knows what delegation is. But if you want to go beyond that, you need to ask the question, what are the actual superpowers of my team members and how do I get each team member operating as much in their super power as possible? Let’s look at what’s $10 work with hundred thousand, 10,000 as being considerably different for each team member. Okay. What’s $10,000 an hour work for the dentist is not the same as what’s $10,000 an hour work for Helen, which is not the same as what’s $10,000 an hour work for the manager.

[00:25:05] One of the difficult conversations to have with a team is. Okay. Everybody knows what everybody else does. But how much of your job isn’t really in your wheelhouse or, if we adjusted things, if we moved some of the jobs around everybody would be a lot happier and frankly, a lot more productive. And how many jobs are we doing around here that don’t really need to be done in the first place where nobody remembers why do we do this?

[00:25:36] One of the problems with a good workhorse team member, like one of the really reliable ones and they have all the keys and they have all the passwords and they come early and they stay. One of the common problems with that employee is that they are so dutiful and obedient that they don’t question whether they should even be doing something in the first place. Sometimes you need to teach them to question it like, if you’re doing stuff and you don’t know why you’re doing. Coming as you’re doing it at all. And this is, so now it’s hard to have the conversation. If you get all your employees in a room and. So what’s having con conversation about what jobs we should have. Everybody’s got feelings about this stuff. People are afraid of hurting each other’s feelings. People are afraid of speaking up for themselves. There’s always one or two people that speak up for themselves too much. That speak up too little, right? And it’s going to be a sticky, uncomfortable conversation before it starts turning productive.

[00:26:49] But I’ll give you an example of how this really helped me about 10 years ago. I don’t know if your listeners are familiar with the Colby test. K O L D E, but it’s a really great tool for figuring out how people. And we had all taken our Colby scores and we were on the phone with a Colby consultant who was looking at our scores and saying look looking at all your scores. Here’s where I think you’re probably having problems and she nailed us. . And because she was like, poking these problems exactly. Several of us started getting upset because there was pent up frustrations and the conversation kind of went like this. Everybody’s like, why does Perry Ram these projects down our throat in and we have to have it done in three days?

[00:27:39] The reason is it’s the 27th of the month and we have payroll one 30. And the stuff has to get done. And the Colby consultant says there’s no person in the middle of this organization connecting everybody and deciding what everybody needs to do. You have the visionary who knows what needs to be done, that Perry’s not a manager. Okay. And so he’s really just forcing things through at the last minute, and it’s really not how the organization ought to run. And at that point, my brother, who was like the curmudgeon consultant in Lincoln, Nebraska, who occasionally comes out of this cave and, works with a team, but often is writing books or like doing things on the side, he stepped up and he goes, this needs to be done.

[00:28:31] And I’m going to do it. And I’m like, really there is like really, and he stepped up and he became the president of the company, he had that position 10 years. That wouldn’t have never, if we had a deliberate conversation about is everybody doing what they should be doing based on their super powers. And so I can hardly imagine that there’s any company listening to me where if you had that conversation and worked your way through the uncomfortable part, that by the time you get to the end, you start moving out and everybody’s happier and they’re more productive. And you have to give yourself permission to stop doing stuff that you’re not good at.

[00:29:22] Or that you’re, you’re okay at, but you’re not great at because good really is the enemy of the great,

[00:29:33] is that pretty much how you tie the two things together? The the quadrants and and the.

[00:29:40] Yeah. So my barnacles aren’t the same as your barnacles, my work ethics stuff. Isn’t the same as yours. My Renaissance time. Isn’t the same as yours. And so if we can really think carefully about what is Luke’s $10,000 an hour work. And that very seriously okay. Think through the last year. When were those magic moments? Let’s take a sales person who’s on straight commission or let’s say they’re hypothetically on street commission.

[00:30:14] Even if they get a salary,

[00:30:15] There’s about 250 work days in a year. Odds are half the money that you made last year, you made in about five days. It’s almost certainly true. You go. Okay. So what were those five days when you made literally half your income? I closed this one deal and the big clients showed up.

[00:30:43] I got this product out the door and that product has sold really well. what was the bottleneck that you solve that got that product out the door? Cause there’s all this mundane stuff about the developing the product, but there was some sticking point and it took some of your special sauce for that to happen. What was it? And you start looking at that and you go, wow. I don’t spend most of my time doing these kinds of things. I spend most of my time polishing turds. Okay. Honestly, that’s what I’m doing, right? I only got five minutes till the next meeting. I think I’m going to go on Twitter.

[00:31:23] How about instead of going on Twitter? Re-examine your priority list for the day and cross off two things that you really don’t need to be doing. That’s way more productive than going on Twitter. It’s less distracting to,

[00:31:38] Both of these concepts you’ve had around for a while. And I think a lot’s changed over the last few years. March, 2020, so we’re getting to two years, I think. Yeah. So depending on when this goes out, so how has that change in context for everyone and how does that influence, what, how you think about these.

[00:32:00] One thing that’s just been more and more clear to me as I’ve matured is that we have this illusion of that we’re in control of things. And I think it’s mostly an illusion. I think if there’s anything that pandemic teaches us, it’s that we’re actually in control of very little.

[00:32:20] And even to the point where people can pretend I got a vaccine or if you wear a mask or if I issue this regulation, like I can control this thing. I don’t know. It’s pretty obvious to me that , you can certainly affect it to some degree, but you’re never going to control it.

[00:32:36] And rather than controlling the things. I think we need to look for affordances or opportunities that open up in the midst of the chaos. So I haven’t enjoyed being in a pandemic any more than anybody else has. Okay. But I gotta say I’ve been ridiculously productive in the pandemic. To generalize, I would say it’s because I decided to be agile and take what was thrown at me and run with it.

[00:33:10] So I’ll give you an example. A little over two years ago, about three months before the pandemic. I got invited to help organize a cancer and evolution conference. And the plan was that it was going to be in Cambridge, Massachusetts, probably at Harvard or MIT. In fact we started putting it together and I even got a speaking invitation at Harvard that was going to be in may of 2020. And then all, wow. Mary got a speaking invitation at Harvard, like dang, all that got canceled. So there’s been no speaking opportunity at Harvard. The symposium got moved to zoom and it happened on zoom. I believe that was what made it successful. We got all the speakers we wanted except for one. And the reason was everybody was stuck at home. And as a result of that, a whole organization formed around the science of cancer and evolution. And I later found out there had been probably five or six attempts to do this before that had never succeeded. And it succeeded, partly because it was the right combination of people this time. It was on zoom and every everybody’s schedules have been completely disrupted and it happened, and I’ve now run with multiple opportunities that have come out of that. And it’s really blossomed into something quite remarkable that I could not have possibly predicted two years ago. that’s just an example of how it’s gone and and I am prone as much as anybody to wish things were the way they were going to be and try to force it and try to jam it. But I found what actually works the best is when you let go of your preconceived notion of how it was going to be, and you just pursue it the way that it actually is. And and just keep walking through open doors.

[00:35:20] If we were to leap 10 years into the future, we will look back and you go, who were the people that rose the most in the last 10 years? And I think a lot of it is going to be the people who exercised agility in the pandemic. I think one of the ways that people avoid being agile is they argue about what everybody should be doing. Okay. I think if you’re on Twitter all day, arguing about masks and arguing about government regulations and all of that stuff, you’re just wasting the opportunity that you could have had to go get something done. Because I’m not going to change any government regulations and neither are you. And I’m not going to come up with a cure for COVID. But I can do what I can do and we can all do more than we think we.

[00:36:15] Do you have any insights in terms of like specifically how teams work within companies or something, how that’s shifted in your own company and client companies that kind of thumb?

[00:36:25] Everybody is learning a lesson that I already learned the hard way, because I’ve run a virtual company for 20 years. There’s a very fundamental trade off of going virtual. And here’s what it is. The positive side is that you can get anybody you want or any kind of talent. You want needles in haystacks. Like no matter how rare or hard to get it’s obtainable because the person doesn’t have to move. Okay.

[00:36:58] And then there’s a penalty that you pay for. And the penalty is that communication is three times more work in the virtual company than it is in a in-person company. And there’s all these things that you don’t hear over the transom.

[00:37:20] So for example, one of my team members just found out four months later that one of my other team members how to divorce, nobody knew that she didn’t notice. I thought everybody knew well, no. And an in-person company. There’s no way you wouldn’t know. It would get discussed at lunch or during a break or something like that. But because communication has to be so deliberate.

[00:37:48] If you’re running a virtual company, you have to deliberately consciously over communicate with everybody. Over communicate your priorities over communicate why we’re doing what we’re doing. And it is an energy drain. Like I think it’s a lot, it takes a lot more mental energy to be on zoom that does to sit in a chair at a table with some other people.

[00:38:15] And so that is the trade off.

[00:38:18] And so as companies go virtual, they’re like nobody wants to come in and all that. My personal opinion. Like I always get my whole entire team together once a year, just for the sake of doing it. And we fly them in from all over the place. And I get parts of my team together in a room , multiple times a year, and I spend the money to do it.

[00:38:43] And I think companies where, everybody’s gotten virtual. Are you going to have to make very deliberate investments? Maybe it’s, Hey, everybody comes in on Thursdays. I know you don’t want to. We all got to see each other. We all got to talk to each other and I’m sure that means that you’re going to develop a whole new rhythm for how it works, or maybe you fly everybody in every three months or every six months.

[00:39:10] I think you need to have parties. You need to have social time is you don’t just do it to have meetings. I know a friend who I can think of two different companies. They flew all their employees to Hawaii. They’re doing great. And that’s really expensive. Yeah. But you know what employees really liked going to Hawaii

[00:39:34] if they were thinking about quitting, maybe they’re not so sure. And. I guess what I’m saying is Jones. Don’t be in denial about the real cost of having a well-functioning virtual team, because it’s going to cut.

[00:39:52] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:53] It’s funny because before the pandemic, I think a lot of the argument for virtual work was like you’re not going to have any kind of office related real estate costs.

[00:40:02] And actually it’s cheaper to be all remote, all virtual and Yeah no. At least we don’t have the kind of internal barrier, oh, it would never work if everybody was virtual. Now we know it can work better or worse, but it can’t work so it can work, but it’s harder than it looks and yeah.

[00:40:24] This has been great. Very thank you very much for hopping on.

[00:40:27] I would like to suggest that if. If this was helpful to you, you would really like my book detox, declutter dominate, which is it’s only 36 pages. It’s on Amazon detox, declutter dominate by Perry Marshall. It’s got a whole section on the work quadrants and several other things.

[00:40:49] 80, 20 time, it’s got a chart of 1,000 thousand, $10,000 an hour. And I think that book will literally change your life. Like I said in only 36 pages.

[00:41:02] Yeah. No, that’s great. That’s great. And I know you definitely can pack a lot of punch in a short amount of pages. So I know a small amount of pages that is great.

[00:41:09] Yeah. And I guess, funding, what else wants to check you out? It’d be what Perry marshall.com would be the.

[00:41:18] Yeah, get up, get on the email list and we’ll will challenge your assumptions from the very first minutes.

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